The Jersey children's home story .. "Former Police Chief to be Witness"

by GD Thu 31 Jul 2008, 11:51 am

Charred remains from at least five children have been discovered in the cellars of a former children's home in Jersey, but a murder inquiry is unlikely due to difficulties in dating the remains, police said.
The remains of the children, aged between four and 11, were found in a hidden dungeon described as "punishment rooms" in Haut de la Garenne, the former children's home that has been at the centre of a wide-ranging abuse probe on the island state in the English Channel.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Lenny Harper, the deputy chief officer of States of Jersey police, said: "At the end of the day there may not be the evidence there to mount a homicide inquiry and an attempt to bring anybody to justice for whatever crimes took place there."
Police have evidence the bodies were burned and hidden in the late 1960s to early 1970s. Experts believe the 65 milk teeth that officers have recovered from the cellars could only have come out after death because of their condition.
More than 100 human bone fragments were also found at the site. One piece was identified as coming from a child's leg and another from a child's ear.
Tests showed some fragments were cut while others were burned, suggesting that murders had taken place and the victims' bodies had possibly been cremated in a fireplace.
Police are looking into around 97 allegations of abuse on Jersey dating back to the early 1960s and have said there are more than 100 suspects.
Harper said carbon dating techniques had not been able to establish an exact time of death for the children's remains.
"The indications are that if the results come back the same way as they have now it is obvious there won't be a homicide inquiry," he said.
However, the police search has unearthed valuable pieces of evidence which "substantially corroborate" accounts of abuse at the home, Harper added.
Investigations started in February after the discovery of what was initially believed to be part of a child's skull, but tests later suggested it was more likely to be wood or part of a coconut.

Following the find, scores of people came forward claiming they were drugged, raped and beaten at the home.

Police excavated four secret underground chambers at the site, referred to as "punishment rooms" by some victims, and found shackles, a large bloodstained bath and children's teeth.
In one cellar officers found the disturbing message "I've been bad for years and years" scrawled on a wooden post.
Three men have been charged with sex abuse offences as part of the inquiry into historical abuse. (from the Guardianonline)

by GD Thu 31 Jul 2008, 11:55 am

There may not be a murder investigation

Police in Jersey say it's looking increasingly unlikely that there will be a murder investigation as a result of their findings at former children's care home Haut de La Garenne.

Since February fragments of bone, teeth and other human remains have been uncovered by a team of forensic experts working as part of the ongoing historic abuse inquiry.

Detectives say although they believe the remains are those of several children, if they can't be accurately dated there may not be a murder investigation (from CTVonline)

by Pete Burtenshaw Thu 31 Jul 2008, 6:03 pm

typical......white wash. let the guilty walk......let gsy learn a lesson here and I hope that those who carried out and who carry out any form abuse on children are not let off so lightly if the truth ever comes out over here.

by Pegasus Thu 31 Jul 2008, 10:46 pm

Hey PB, if the remains are back to 1650 like the latest release states, how the hell can you bring those people to justice, I also believe that the recent arrest's will end in nothing, the evidence that the police would of obtained won't be enough for conviction

by Pete Burtenshaw Fri 01 Aug 2008, 8:08 pm

I work on the assumption that the Jsy gov is corrupt and have blocked, corrupted, threatened, made death threats against the Police officer leading the investigation and do not want the truth to come out or the prosecution of those involved and will do all they can to ensure the investigation comes to nothing. There are some very powerful poeple in Jsy who have blood on their hands.

by gsyguy Fri 01 Aug 2008, 9:02 pm

humm going to play the Devil's Advocate here,has n e one stopped to think that maybe,those 5 where accidents or deaths from the hands of the other children,seems the guilty are not those that were first thought of, could the so called cover ups be for the sake of those children who live now?fingers can point in all directions.
I alson know that they should have reported any death be it natural causes or not

by kat Fri 01 Aug 2008, 9:14 pm

it brings tears to my eyes just reading how these children died,it is horrific and those who were involved should be held responsible
those poor children who were left there to be cared for by folks only to be abused and then killed ..it is like a horror film
terrible

by gsyguy Fri 01 Aug 2008, 9:24 pm

Devil's advo again,a long long time ago ............................seems strange why now all this is happening,maybe i missed the original reason as to why?
There are times when things are best left dead and buried(untouched/left unsaid)
wouldnt it be nice to have the names of thiose that Accused? we know those that have been,and know those that have said "nothing happend when i was there" oh the conflicts......who said what and who done what to whom when and where we will never know

After when this case is closed,the stain and the animosity of it all will reamin far longer than than those that live to remember

by Troy McClure Tue 19 Aug 2008, 3:41 pm

Pete Burtenshaw wrote:typical......white wash. let the guilty walk...

Not really; more a case of let the innocent walk, you know 'assumption of innocence until proven guilty'.

Pete Burtenshaw wrote:I work on the assumption that the Jsy gov is corrupt and have blocked, corrupted, threatened, made death threats against the Police officer leading the investigation and do not want the truth to come out or the prosecution of those involved and will do all they can to ensure the investigation comes to nothing. There are some very powerful poeple in Jsy who have blood on their hands.

Seriously, do you not see the flaw to you're pathetic argument?

You assume guilt; the very opposite of justice.

Please explain what proof you have that ANY crime has been committed. Every single piece of 'evidence' that has been suggested, and then jumped on by the sensation hungry media, is easily justified as innocent.

The Police and lawyers know this, so can't use any of it in creating any case, which unfortunately allows the sensational media, and narrow-minded, nasty little gossips ring theirs hands at this 'obvious' cover-up.

The biggest problem with this saga is the poor management of the investigation by Leonard Harper, the poor media savvy of messers Walker and Syvret and the childish immature in-fighting of politicians like Le Main, Baillache etc.

Was there abuse at HdlG? Probably, just like there was at the vast majority of homes in years gone by no doubt, including Eton, Sandhurst and many, many private family homes.

by Pete Burtenshaw Tue 19 Aug 2008, 5:53 pm

Are you saying that those who were abused were in fact not abused and that there were no murders of innocent children at HdelG? How do you think the remains of those poor children were found not just by experienced sniffer dogs but by those who were there and who saw and heard the cruelty of that place perpetrated by animals all in the name of childcare, to top it off your corrupt CM and others wanted a cover up ask why or you probably know why….You should be totally ashamed of yourself. Lenny Harper is a man who is not and was not scared by the threats on his life, the constant abuse by some of your pathetic ministers which included those who wanted his good name tarnished. I pity you.

by Pete Burtenshaw Tue 19 Aug 2008, 5:54 pm

gsyguy wrote:Devil's advo again,a long long time ago ............................seems strange why now all this is happening,maybe i missed the original reason as to why?
There are times when things are best left dead and buried(untouched/left unsaid)
wouldnt it be nice to have the names of thiose that Accused? we know those that have been,and know those that have said "nothing happend when i was there" oh the conflicts......who said what and who done what to whom when and where we will never know

After when this case is closed,the stain and the animosity of it all will reamin far longer than than those that live to remember

Gsyguy, I am amazed at your post.....

by Troy McClure Tue 19 Aug 2008, 6:26 pm

Pete Burtenshaw wrote:Are you saying that those who were abused were in fact not abused and that there were no murders of innocent children at HdelG? How do you think the remains of those poor children were found not just by experienced sniffer dogs but by those who were there and who saw and heard the cruelty of that place perpetrated by animals all in the name of childcare, to top it off your corrupt CM and others wanted a cover up ask why or you probably know why….You should be totally ashamed of yourself. Lenny Harper is a man who is not and was not scared by the threats on his life, the constant abuse by some of your pathetic ministers which included those who wanted his good name tarnished. I pity you.

Those remains could be older than the building and they're partial remains; I could hypothesize of many ways they came to be there, many ways they came to die, I could, but I won't because it'd be pointless.

I'm sure there was abuse, just as there was abuse at my school, but the extent of that abuse I've seen no evidence of. One report I read talked about a child being forced into a freezing cold bath, in the 'hidden dungeon'; This was in the 40s though, and there were children in well-off families that were expected to bath in cold water, the 'hidden dungeon' was the institutions bath house, it was 'hidden' only after the place was re-plumbed but modern baths in and it was below stairs for simple plumbing and building reasons.

As for any sympathy for Harper, the guy's a media whore who loves the sound of his own voice. Do you have personal experience of that awful man? I do. And even amongst his own officers he is not well thought of.

Please don't be lead by the media sensationalism

by Pete Burtenshaw Tue 19 Aug 2008, 6:44 pm

You more or less expect abuse to be the norm and adopt the principle it seems there is nothing immoral about abuse regardless of what guise it takes. The Nazis murdered and tortured those of the Jewish faith and millions of others, just because this went on in the 1940's it does not mean it was acceptable. Your stance portrays a person who is either within the establishment or protecting someone. Your remarks about Lenny Harper are crude perverted remarks which require utter contempt……..shame on you..

by MarkyD Tue 19 Aug 2008, 7:30 pm

I think that a vital point is being missed here. I understand and relate to your points Troy regarding being innocent until proven guilty, however I don't think your point regarding providing proof that ANY crime has taken place stands up very well.

As I see it, the reason behind the unlikelihood of a murder investigation relates to difficulties in dating the remains and thus creating a reliable timeframe that the offence(s) were committed - not for reasons than no evidence of any crimes exist.

I believe that were it not for these carbon dating difficulties, then they probably would proceed with a further investigation.

Unless I have completely misread / misheard some of the facts, the burning and disposal of childrens bodies (however long ago) is pretty indicative of a crime taking place - even if the offender is never discovered. There was never any reports of these children perishing in a fire at the home - historically or more recently so I think it reasonable to assume that their deaths were unlawful.

I'm sure that Troy does not condone this or any other form of abuse Pete.

by Troy McClure Tue 19 Aug 2008, 7:37 pm

No, obviously I don't think that abuse is acceptable, but in years gone by a cold bath was the norm for some, not an abusive punishment. A beating was seen at the time as acceptable punishment when a child had misbehaved. I say that some, by no means all, of those claiming they were abused are blowing it out of proportion.

By rolling out any argument involving the Nazis lowers my respect for your arguments, I'm afraid. I'm sick of hearing that old chestnut from those who think any vague nonsensical comparison of Nazis and genocide with whatever it is they choose to argue against can somehow make it seem more evil. Weak.

I'm not within the 'establishment', a term I dislike, but I am protecting someone, in fact lots of people; from idiots who seem to believe whatever they read in the JEP or hear 'from a bloke in the pub'.

My remarks about Leonard Harper are based on what I have heard from him first hand (unconnected to HdlG), how he's acted over a period of years on more than one subject.

What are you basing your 'utter contempt' and shaming of me on? more assumption?

What evidence are you basing your assumptions on, or is it just that you're being caught up and carried along by the angry mob?

by Troy McClure Tue 19 Aug 2008, 7:58 pm

MarkyD wrote:...Unless I have completely misread / misheard some of the facts, the burning and disposal of childrens bodies (however long ago) is pretty indicative of a crime taking place...

Disposal of partial remains, of unknown children, of unknown age, by unknown persons, for unknown reasons.

What if:
Those bones belonged to children from, say 250years ago, children of the farmer, or farm workers of the farm on the site, or close by, of what subsequently has become HdlG. Maybe those children died of disease and were buried in a family grave (legitimately or not) on the farm. Years later the graves are untended and the site developed the remains disturbed.

This would explain the partial remains, the 'cut' bones, the cause of death etc. etc. What should be done, what action taken against the poor farm worker of the 1700s who's only crime might have been not using an official grave-yard, if that was even a crime at the time?

I think I'm right in saying that the ash and spoil from the incinerator at the general hospital was dumped in the reclamation site of the 80s. When Harcourt dig up the waterfront to sink the road and find partial charred bones who're we gonna accused of murder? the former owners and occupiers of the site? Les Pas Holdings?

by MarkyD Tue 19 Aug 2008, 8:34 pm

I'm sure there are lots of 'What If's' Troy. You are berrating other posters for assuming that crimes took place, but is it any different to you assuming that no crimes took place?

Many posters (me included to some extent) obviously base an opinion on what is printed in the paper (although I am very careful which paper I choose to be more reliable and less sensational).

"Police say they have evidence the bodies were burned and attempts were made to conceal the bodies in the late 60s to early 70s."

I agree with the feasibility of the theory you posted, however Police reports tend to suggest a date much later (albeit not specific).

I guess that if the media is attributing statements from the Police indicating timeframes around the 60's - 70's then we should assume that this would have been corrected by the Police if they thought the media were sensationalising the story or reporting hearsay and 'gossip' as facts.

by Pete Burtenshaw Tue 19 Aug 2008, 9:12 pm

Troy, you can insult me as much as you like and demean my posts I stand by them. You are defending someone make no mistake and at some stage in the past you have had a run in with Lenny Harper and because of this your opinions are blinkered. I do not believe everything I read in the locals, Christ they are not even proper papers. No, I reach my opinions by intellect, probability and knowledge and one can say that it is probable that a murder or two and severe abuse took place at HdlG over years by animals. Equally, if you had a decent judicial system and a respectable gov then justice would be done and those who murdered and abused and those who are protecting these disgusting beasts would be standing trial by now and facing a long long prison sentence.......

by GD Wed 20 Aug 2008, 2:50 pm

IT has been claimed that victims of Haut de la Garenne are afraid that the Island’s authorities will prevent the police from investigating historical child abuse properly.
After lengthy and emotional meetings with the survivors of children’s homes in the Island, Mick Waters, the founder and chairman of Survivors of Child Abuse, has said that many of the alleged victims ‘fear authority’ and want an opportunity to tell their stories.
Mr Waters (64), pictured, a survivor of the notorious Artane Industrial Boys School in Ireland, who claims to have suffered mistreatment and abuse at the hands of the Christian Brothers, is also urging the people of Jersey to offer support and to listen to the sufferers. And he believes that a public apology is needed to help Jersey address its child abuse scandal. (from thisisjersey)

by Troy McClure Wed 20 Aug 2008, 6:51 pm

MarkyD wrote:I'm sure there are lots of 'What If's' Troy. You are berrating other posters for assuming that crimes took place, but is it any different to you assuming that no crimes took place?
...

I'm not assuming that no crimes took place, and have never said that; what I'm saying is that there is not sufficient evidence, in the public domain, for any safe assumption to be made either way.

I believe that people should be presumed innocent, until proven guilty.

If anybody doesn't believe this then they will need to explain to me how they expect to administer civilised justice.

by Troy McClure Wed 20 Aug 2008, 7:46 pm

Pete Burtenshaw wrote:...You are defending someone make no mistake and at some stage in the past you have had a run in with Lenny Harper and because of this your opinions are blinkered...

Yet more erroneous assumption; Did your intellect, your knowledge and probability lead you there?

You have no knowledge of me, so your intellect must have used probability alone to form your assumptions. So how do you calculate your probabilities? How did you calculate the better than 50% probability that my views must be blinkered? because I disagree that your assumptions are not without flaws?

Seems to me that you methodology is deeply flawed and likely to end in a circular argument.

Would you call it justice if any prosecution related to this issue, or any other, was handled such baseless methodology? Would you like to be judged by somebody in this fashion?

by MarkyD Wed 20 Aug 2008, 7:53 pm

I must admit to trying exteremly hard (and failing miserably) to understand your point of view Troy. I too am a believer in a person being innocent until proven guilty - although I defy anyone to stick to that opinion if a crime was committed against a member of their family in front of their own eyes! I digress.

"Safe assumption"? We are not talking about convicting someone on the basis of reasonable doubt here, in fact we probably aren't even considering the possibility of anyone facing murder charges anyway.

We base our assumption on the facts that the Police have elected to divulge. There has probably been more widespread media coverage of an in depth nature (and media releases given by the Police which have allowed deeper intrusion into an ongoing investigation than I have probably ever known).

Is it reasonable after all this information being released by the 'investigation team' to bury our head in the sand and assume that it is all circumstantial or can be explained away and expect people to think the same way?

I am happy to believe the reports coming from the centre and the victims of abuse who are slowly coming forward, and whilst keeping an open mind that we will probably never know the full extent of what happened there, and who the offenders really were, that regardless of the bitter pill it must be to swallow for Jersey residents and the International and Tourism damage it causes the island, there are probably enough facts in the public domain to form the opinion that crimes were committed during the reported period years ago by person(s) yet unidentified.

I apologise if you have an opposing view, but it's human nature to form opinions based on personal values, interpretation of information, judgement and free thinking.

by MarkyD Wed 20 Aug 2008, 8:09 pm

Troy McClure wrote:I'm not assuming that no crimes took place, and have never said that; what I'm saying is that there is not sufficient evidence, in the public domain, for any safe assumption to be made either way.

But surely such irrefutable evidence being presented in the public domain so as to satisfy your requirements for a 'safe assumption' would then seriously predjudice any impending court case?

Should we then play safe and always assume that the world is a rosy place and nothing bad ever happens until such time we are presented with the details of a conviction?

I don't believe that you have ever watched the news - either local, national or international and assumed that the reports you were hearing couldn't have happened just because the evidence had not been presented sufficiently?

by Troy McClure Wed 20 Aug 2008, 8:52 pm

MarkyD wrote:I must admit to trying exteremly hard (and failing miserably) to understand your point of view Troy. I too am a believer in a person being innocent until proven guilty - although I defy anyone to stick to that opinion if a crime was committed against a member of their family in front of their own eyes!...

Seeing something with your own eyes is very different from reading vague details interpreted into sensational horror stories by journalists selling papers.

It's not a case of burying our heads, but keeping them. Lets not get carried away like a lynch mob, acting on pure assumption.

What evidence, other than the accusations of those who spent time in care, have the police released to indicate a murder? or abuse?

by MarkyD Wed 20 Aug 2008, 10:40 pm

Troy McClure wrote:What evidence, other than the accusations of those who spent time in care, have the police released to indicate a murder? or abuse?

OK, for the sake of removing an unreliable source lets not take anything directly from the media. Lets go directly to the States of Jersey press office. http://www.jersey.police.uk/news/index.html

What physical evidence have they released? None of course as that would predjudice the ongoing enquiry. Do they mention having seized over 1000 exhibits? Do they themselves mention having gathered evidence? Read it for yourself.

Main points at media briefing

Wednesday 9 July 2008

At this morning’s Media Facility, Deputy Chief Officer Lenny Harper made the following points:

Following intelligence and evidence gathered as part of the current historical abuse enquiry, a second site on Jersey has been identified as a potential crime scene. This is a German bunker at Victoria Tower around
half a mile from Haut de la Garenne.
In light of this intelligence andevidence, scenes of crime teams and search dogs have moved on to the site.
Among this intelligence and evidence are allegations that residents at Haut de la Garenne were taken to the bunker by members of staff and abused.
It is hoped that the new search will not prove to be a lengthy process. However the investigation will take as long as necessary in order to complete a detailed and professional examination.
It is not anticipated that an archaeological examination will be carried out at the new site.
Officers are in the process of moving out of Haut de la Garenne and handing the property back to the trustees. It is expected that the formal handover will take place on Friday.
A total of 65 children’s teeth have been recovered from Haut de la Garenne, 39 of which are already being examined in the UK with the remainder being sent over in the coming days .
A large number of bone fragments are also being examined.
Around 150 tons of material has been recovered during the search at Haut de la Garenne which has been sieved and stored.
In excess of 1100 exhibits have also been recovered.
It is believed that the victims number 97.
109 people have been named as being involved in offences connected to the investigation, with 18 being identified as priority suspects.

Is this not sufficient to convince you?

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