Re: GST could go above 3%, warns Chief Minister

by Fast Robert Tue 17 Feb 2009, 9:05 am

Not all rich people are tossers, but the idle rich who tend to be in influential circles tend to want things to go their way, and more often than not that's exactly what happens.

I don't think that everyone should have the same amount of money regardless of talent, work or luck. That would be counterproductive. However, there needs to be more control over wealth. The explosion of the finance industry in the islands has grossly distorted the standard of living. Those at the top, who do not necessarily work any harder or are of any greater benefit to society as a whole, are able to milk the system for their own ends. They buy up prime land, seclude themselves, and offer little. I'm in Guernsey and you only have to walk around the dead village of Fort George to witness the waste. Wealth in itself is sterile. It needs to be used to progress society. Hoarding it and funneling it upwards to the few, who in turn concentrate it further through the generations leads to nothing but social division and ultimately social unrest. It breeds crime.

Who said about giving estates away to the poor? You mustn't make assumptions! What needs to occur is that inheritance tax drives down market prices for houses. A house is a home, not an investment. By not factoring in any imposed corrections, all property will end up in the hands of the few, who are quite happy to maintain the distortions so they can charge higher rents and get bigger profits.

The systems we have lived in, first feudal, and now this Friedman inspired capitalism have failed society. Look at the state of the UK. There is no longer any pride in humble communities, it's all about achieving individual wealth with this mantra of 'securing' the future and choice for your offspring. The problem is that there is only a finite amount of wealth kicking about, so ythat individualism comes at a high price.

Guernsey is failing its people. Decades of underinvestment in capital projects caused by appeasing the high net worths means that we are having to pay for it by stealth taxes, rather than the much more acceptable to all general revenue. It's just that those in power are constantly whispered to by those who have the actual power to maintain the inbalances.

A perfect example was when a Deputy suggested that the SI cap get removed. The guffaws of derision from certain well connected members was sickening. It's very, very sad that in our times of need we have the dinosaurs of a failed age still able to belittle sensible progressives. Twas ever thus, mind, I was just hoping that we had advanced since the middle ages.

by karma Tue 17 Feb 2009, 12:10 pm

GST is only 3%, prices vary from shop to shop in Jersey by over 60% for non-sale items I know of, so you can't pile the blame for high prices at the door of GST. That you decide to buy in Gsy. as a visitor to Jsy is your choice, are prices (regardless of GST) actually cheaper in Gsy as a rule?

The Channel Islands as a whole are a farce as far as VAT and GST are concerned. Most of the English shops - Next, New Look, Evans to name but a few- charge VAT in the guise of 'freightage' - and our 'powers that be' are powerless to do anything about it...so in Jersey you are in effect paying twice - I saw several shops declaring themselves GST free - they forget to add, but VAT is still added....at least buying in Guernsey you are only paying 'freight' for the time being!!!! As someone on a fixed income (pension) I now buy online, first checking with the firm that they take off the VAT before it comes over......I then pay postage, which is usually much cheaper, even when it's sent by courier!!!

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 1:15 am

Thistle wrote:...you always berate people on lower incomes troy...

Where have I berated anybody for being on a low income?

karma wrote:...Most of the English shops - Next, New Look, Evans to name but a few- charge VAT in the guise of 'freightage'...

An often repeated, but false or at best unproven statement. I know of no UK or international branded stores that charge VAT in Jersey at least.

karma wrote:...I saw several shops declaring themselves GST free...

The false representation of 'GST free' stores is something that annoys me too. Our local paper's 'Fair Play' column often uses Hallmark Cards in Halkett place as a shining example of a retailer due to its large posters claiming it to be GST free... only it's not, it's a lie.

karma wrote:...I now buy online...

I don't blame you, but you do realise that online shopping is destroying the local retail sector, along with the local jobs and taxes that go with it.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 1:22 am

Fast Robert wrote:...Who said about giving estates away to the poor? You mustn't make assumptions!...

You, here:

Fast Robert wrote:...I'm all in favour of 100% inheritance tax...

or did you intend not to use these tax revenues to fund welfare etc.

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 7:24 am

Troy McClure wrote:

Many of those on low incomes (myself excluded) are looked after very well by the higher income tax-payers through the States, and while the best idea would be for the States to become more efficient and less wasteful with those hard-earned taxes, maybe the 'poor' should accept that they should be grateful for any help they get rather than moaning they can't afford the latest mobile phone or the SKY sports package for the big screen TV.

will this do a perfect troyism

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 7:29 am

Troy McClure wrote:If somebody is wealthy why does that make them a tosser unless they give their wealth to the poor? Why don't the poor work harder to achieve the same success?

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:50 am

Thistle wrote:...will this do a perfect troyism

No, as I'm not berating anybody for being on a low income there; what I was saying was that those who are on a low income and being supported by the State should be grateful for the support they get, and not expect other tax-payers to fund luxuries.

Do you disagree? Others in this thread have said that the aspiration to have material items like SKY subscriptions and mobile phones is what's wrong with society, so for those on State Income Support to be able to afford such luxuries is surely wrong, surely they're not in need of financial support if they can afford these things?

Where you quote me again I'm again not berating those on low incomes, I'm asking why, in response to Fast Robert's statement, that the rich who don't pay a disproportionate amount of their wealth in taxes to fund the poor look like tossers, why don't we ask the poor to work to achieve the same success as those he thinks should make hard to fund tax funded services.

I have specifically said in this thread that I don't brand all poor with the same brush.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:56 am

Thistle wrote:if the islands hadn't gone down the route of zero/ten then we would'nt be having to fund all the services via extra taxes.at least dick turpin had a mask.as i have said before the islands governments don't care about the working man all they care about is finance and the idle rich.

You may be right that if the islands hadn't gone down the route of 0/10 there wouldn't be a need to replace to foregone taxes, but what was the alternative?

So far in this thread the alternatives offered have been, IMO, unfair taxes like 100% inheritance taxes; do you honestly think that would be a better system than a fair consumption tax? Had the old system carried on and survived pressure from the EU etc. would that have been fairer?

With most of the islands working men reliant on finance, would any policy likely to jeapodise their jobs been a better way to care for them?

by Fast Robert Wed 18 Feb 2009, 9:04 am

Troy McClure wrote:
Fast Robert wrote:...Who said about giving estates away to the poor? You mustn't make assumptions!...
You, here:
Fast Robert wrote:...I'm all in favour of 100% inheritance tax...
or did you intend not to use these tax revenues to fund welfare etc.

Nope, to act as a dampener on the housing market and to fund housing infrastructure.

Welfare is not a means to 'give to the poor', rather to help those that are unable to compete. I am in agreement that no one should be allowed to 'do nothing' for a living. if you are able to work, and there is work available, then you should work. That goes for the idle rich too.

A progressive society has no room for individual empire building. The effort to better oneself must be tempered with a desire to help society otherwise it becomes a pointless exercise of exclusion. Building a castle and barricading yourself against the perceived hoi polloi is ultimately destructive. The US is built on this ideology and its in a parlous state.

The strong must act strong and not do the minimum. It may sound unfair but that's how all structures work. You wouldn't ask the weakest member of your family to do all the heavy lifting, nor would you design a rota. The strongest would be expected to do it, whilst helping the weakest develop strength. The strongest must be a role model otherwise responsibilty is absolved.

As it is there would be far to much resistance to total inheritance tax, but there are theories out there that make it at least an intellectual positive. Also there are some wealthy people adopting it to incentivise their offspring.

by karma Wed 18 Feb 2009, 10:49 am

karma wrote:

...Most of the English shops - Next, New Look, Evans to name but a few- charge VAT in the guise of 'freightage'...

Troy's answer

An often repeated, but false or at best unproven statement. I know of no UK or international branded stores that charge VAT in Jersey at least

karma wrote:

Go into Evans - look at thee shoes etc with prices already in place and ask the assistant whether VAT is taken off of the price as the price displayed is as charged in the UK (I did this) and she will tell you that the price is the same in Jersey as is written on the item (which is complete with VAT)

karma wrote:

...I now buy online...

Troy's answer

I don't blame you, but you do realise that online shopping is destroying the local retail sector, along with the local jobs and taxes that go with it.

Troy I do not know how old you are - but that statement does make me think you are rather on the young side....presuming that I would not realise that buying online is damaging to 'so called' local shops. I have reached the age where I know I have supported local enterprise for 50+ years (no internet) but there is no way I can afford to support English shops -nor any reason why I should!!! So until my fixed pension has VAT added to it to assist - then I shall continue to support the locals but not the stores that trade in the Island because it gives them higher profit!!!

If I chose to go to England and make my purchases - I can claim back the VAT on re-entry to the Channel Islands!

I suggest you go on line - check out the prices of the shops I have mentioned and then if you do not want to go to St Helier - just pick up the phone and ask them what they are charging for your chosen article!!!! But do it with your eyes wide open together with your mind......(and maybe your calculator)

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 11:17 am

The taxes people pay go to fund the services the State provides; those that are deemed too poor to be able to afford to pay for the services they receive are given tax breaks and if they're deemed to poor to survive they receive benefits from the State. These benefits and tax breaks are funded from the taxes paid by the wealthy.

So any taxes collected from the wealthy that have greater value than the benefits that tax payer receives is going to fund the poor.

It really is that simple, and most people I know don't have a problem with it until it becomes disproportionate, and I think taxing previously taxed income, especially at 100%, is wrong.

I don't see the knowledge that whatever you earn will be taken from you rather you being aloud to pass it to you loved one as you see fit as any incentive to work hard and achieve.

You talk of wealthy people choosing to 'incentivise' their offspring by not leaving them any inheritance, I would argue that that simply makes it necessary for the offspring to either provide for themselves or rely on charity or, of course, State assistance. An incentive as I understand it is something that would encourage me to take a course of action, not force me.

One of the high profile wealthy people who the media have reported as not intending to leave his wealth to his offspring was billionaire Bill Gates, he only intends to leave them $10million each. Who has said they're leaving nothing to their offspring by choice?

by Fast Robert Wed 18 Feb 2009, 12:09 pm

You have to remember that inheritance tax would only kick in at a threshold, and I also think that 100% wouldn't be workable without a whole paradigm shift in the way society works. It only affects a small percentage in the UK.

Inheritance tax is not a double taxation. When it is inherited it becomes a windfall for someone new. Also, if the house price has risen how has that been taxed?

GST is regressive, it hits the poorest hardest. Rich people don't eat more food or need more clothes or use more petrol etc etc. They may buy more luxuries, and that's where it should be targeted if it has to be used.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 12:11 pm

karma wrote:...Go into Evans - look at thee shoes etc with prices already in place and ask the assistant whether VAT is taken off of the price as the price displayed is as charged in the UK (I did this) and she will tell you that the price is the same in Jersey as is written on the item (which is complete with VAT)...

If the price is written on the item then the shop should either be charging that price, or be clearly displaying a sign that says there will be an addition of 3% local GST at the point of sale.

VAT makes no part of the price in Jersey.

karma wrote:...Troy I do not know...

I've no idea how that statement could give anybody much indication of age, unless they are minded to sweeping generalisations, but whatever.

Anyway I did not presume anything, I did not suggest you didn't realise I said "you do realise". And as I said I understand that you want the best financial option for yourself, regardless of it's impact on local society... *I do sympathise and understand, but don't let Fast Robert hear you talking like that you greedy so and so Wink

*(That's a joke for those that won't realise it!)

karma wrote:...If I chose to go to England and make my purchases - I can claim back the VAT on re-entry to the Channel Islands!

Actually you claim it back on leaving the UK, and then if landing in Jersey you'd pay the GST at the applicable rate.

I appreciate your suggestion to go online to research prices, but I'm quite well informed already thank you. While aware that there are some cheaper deals to be had online than some local shops I'm not in a position to take advantage of them as I rarely have any disposable income to go shopping with once I've paid my bills locally for the things I can't import to avoid paying any taxes locally.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 12:21 pm

Fast Robert wrote:You have to remember that inheritance tax would only kick in at a threshold...

Strictly speaking I can't remember until I've been informed, and you were talking earlier without any mention of thresholds, and of you preference of a 100% rate.

Fast Robert wrote:...Inheritance tax is not a double taxation. When it is inherited it becomes a windfall for someone new. Also, if the house price has risen how has that been taxed?...

A family home is purchased for £100k, the income used to fund the purchase is taxed at 20% meaning £20k in tax, upon death the property value is £200k, at 100% tax rate the tax paid by the property owner is now a total of £220K on a £100k property, you're right it's not double.

Fast Robert wrote:...GST is regressive, it hits the poorest hardest. Rich people don't eat more food or need more clothes or use more petrol etc etc. They may buy more luxuries, and that's where it should be targeted if it has to be used.

GST hits everybody the same 3%... except those on income support who have had an increase of greater than 3% to there Income Support payments meaning they've benefited from the introduction of GST.

by karma Wed 18 Feb 2009, 1:36 pm

Troy be so good as to look at this - and tell me that it is not you that is being delusuional.

http://www.thisisguernsey.co.uk/discus/messages/11779/12403.html?1226929832

by Fast Robert Wed 18 Feb 2009, 1:46 pm

You were implying that the tax on something once you are dead is equitable to tax on something when you are alive. Once you are dead you do not pay tax.

I think that you should only be able to inherit a house if you are living in it at the time. If you already have a house why do you need another one? In fact at a notional level, why should anyone inherit anything? You haven't earned it, it isn't yours, why shouldn't you pay for it? It would certainly level the playing field. What's the point in trying to promote success through merit when you can inherit someone else's success? It's just a throwback.

You'd probably have to build in a complicated algorithm to ascertain what unearned profits have been made, need of acquisition, means of inheritor and a system that allows first choice of refusal to the family etc. If a little old lady living in a mansion suddenly dies and the hosue is taken back by the state and the family kicks off, you have to ask why a little old lady was living in a house far too big for her anyway. We must have more control over finite resources. The private individual is not more important to the greater needs of society.

No, Troy 'you-may-know-me-from-reading-the-telegraph' McClure, GST affects AFFECTS poor people more because they have less disposable income.

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 2:46 pm

troy you are wrong the vat is charged on goods sold in uk chains in both islands.we pay exactly the same price in evans guernsey as you do in evans in weymouth.we are told it is the charge for freight,high rents and wages.strange it is equal to the vat amount.

by karma Wed 18 Feb 2009, 3:03 pm

Thanks Thistle - I thought it was only me that 'got the point' and Jersey courtesy of GST pay an added 3% - roll on when they stop everybody smoking in Guernsey and have to make the loss of tax up .............. Australia - here I come in a hand cart (much nicer than going to Hell) LOL

P.S. 'im indoors was talking about somebody called 'Tweezle' the other day - and on being asked who 'Tweezle' was - he said your friend on Vue des Isles .... so arise Lady Tweezle you have been re-named : pink lol : What are these Ozzies like???????

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 3:48 pm

ah maybe i should change my name eh lol.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 4:30 pm

karma wrote:Troy be so good as to look at this - and tell me that it is not you that is being delusuional...

There's no new information that makes any of the points I've made on VAT being charged in any way. In fact the reply from Sandpiper, countering the erroneous information offered by an ill-informed poster complaining about pricing, proves that the arguments being made are often without full understanding.

Thistle wrote:troy you are wrong the vat is charged on goods sold in uk chains in both islands.we pay exactly the same price in evans guernsey as you do in evans in weymouth...

I'm not. VAT is not charged in any store in Jersey (Gsy may be different, but I doubt it). If you're going to carry on saying I'm wrong then prove it; have a retailer openly admit that he's charging UK VAT in a local retail store.

You seem not to understand that paying the same price is different to paying VAT.

by karma Wed 18 Feb 2009, 5:20 pm

Troy - yes the shops mentioned admit it.....the price you see is the English price where the VAT has been factored in....

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 6:05 pm

troy it seems you don't like being proved wrong do you.they charge the tcket price from the uk which already has the vat included in it so yes we and jersey residents are paying vat on english chain store goods.you only have to look at the prices they charge in the stores online shops and do a comparison.the island shops will tell you that the vat part actually equates to the freight charge etc.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:49 pm

Thistle wrote:troy it seems you don't like being proved wrong do you.they charge the tcket price from the uk which already has the vat included in it so yes we and jersey residents are paying vat on english chain store goods.you only have to look at the prices they charge in the stores online shops and do a comparison.the island shops will tell you that the vat part actually equates to the freight charge etc.

I don't mind being proven wrong, but I don't like to be told I'm wrong when I'm not.

The price charged in Jersey is the price charged in Jersey, in some stores they advise whether GST at 3% will be added to any indicated price on the goods at the point of sale.

UK VAT is a tax that makes up a proportion of the price of some goods sold in the UK, the retailer accounts for this and passes this amount to HMR&C. Retailers in Jersey do not pass any part of their sales receipts onto HMR&C and do not show in their accounts any amount raised as VAT; why? Because they do not charge VAT!!

Those retailers that claim they do not charge VAT on signs in their window do so as a marketing ploy, they may as well have a sign up saying 'No Unicorn Meat in our Pies', it wouldn't make their pies any different to the pies in the shop next door that doesn't make this bold claim.

by karma Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:51 pm

They pockets it .......so why declare it!!!!!!

Sorry Tweezle - I promised :-)

by Thistle Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:56 pm

exactly karma.in fact eveans used to deduct 10%off the uk ticket price in guernsey but no longer do so.m&s deduct a percentage off the uk ticket price including vat if the item costs £25 or more.so you see troy they may not call it vat but it is the full uk ticket price which includes the vat.there are no seperate price tickets for the islands that are 15% less than the price charged in the uk shops on the mainland.

by Troy McClure Wed 18 Feb 2009, 8:58 pm

Freight charges btw; I know that the cost of sending the same item of freight to Jersey is 75.3% higher than sending it within the UK, even if it's going Southampton to Aberdeen. Jersey can be charged at the same rate as Gibraltar, Malta or Switzerland. That rate btw is a wholesale rate, so individual business may get hit even harder dependent on their contracts.

by Troy McClure Thu 19 Feb 2009, 7:10 am

karma wrote:They pockets it .......so why declare it!!!!!!...

karma I believe you're in Gsy; correct? and I'm guessing you have no financial connection to the United States; correct?

If so; why don't you declare your income to the US Internal Revenue Service?

by karma Thu 19 Feb 2009, 10:03 am

No Troy - I do not have to declare to the United States but I do have to declare to the Australian authorities - which my husband and I do!!!! So excuse me if I am not sure which point you are trying to make!

by Troy McClure Thu 19 Feb 2009, 11:47 am

You really don't get the point I'm making?!

My point is that you don't declare to the US because you don't have to; the same reason that local retailer don't declare to HMR&C their VAT, because they don't have to; why? Because they DON'T charge VAT.

by Thistle Thu 19 Feb 2009, 3:25 pm

what is the reason they are charging uk prices then.ticket price in uk chains includes vat so they are making a healthy profit not deducting the vat.they are charging it but using wonderful new words for it freightage,rents wages.pmsl

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